Laura Kuenssberg: Deputy PM Oliver Dowden quizzed over Israel-Gaza war – BBC News

It was another busy morning on this week’s Sunday with Laura Kuenssberg.

We heard from deputy Prime Minister Oliver Dowden, Labour’s shadow foreign secretary David Lammy and Nato’s leader Jens Stoltenberg.

This week’s panellists – former Cabinet Secretary Lord Mark Sedwill, Baroness Valerie Amos and comedian Ruby Wax – also had their say.

We’ll be closing this page shortly but before we go there’s time for a quick name check.

This page was written by Thomas Mackintosh and Jemma Crew, and edited by me.

We look forward to you joining us next Sunday – same time, same place.

As Laura mentioned at the start of this morning’s show, today the world is reflecting on two important anniversaries.

The first is that it is 75 years since the founding of the defence partnership Nato – the North Atlantic Treaty Organization, of which the UK is a part.

And Sunday marks exactly six months since the deadly 7 October Hamas attacks against Israel, in which about 1,200 Israelis were killed and more than 250 others were taken hostage.

The attacks led to an Israeli military campaign in Gaza, which has killed more than 33,000 Palestinians, mainly women and children, according to Gaza’s Hamas-run health ministry.

You can read more about that, as well as the latest developments in the conflict, on our other live page here.

Elsewhere, the BBC’s chief correspondent Lyse Doucet is presenting a special programme on BBC Two tonight assessing the human cost of six months of conflict, with searing eye witness accounts from both Israel and Gaza.

That’s The Darkest Days: Israel-Gaza Six Months On, 21:00 BST on BBC Two, and on iPlayer now.

An “alliance of authoritarian powers” is working more closely together against Western democracies, the head of Nato has warned.

Jens Stoltenberg has told the BBC that Russia, Iran, China and North Korea are increasingly aligned.

The Nato chief explains that: “China is propping up the Russian war economy, delivering key parts to the defence industry, and in return, Moscow is mortgaging its future to Beijing.”

He also has said he’s confident that allies of the Nato military alliance would agree a long-term funding deal for Ukraine by July.

But he also suggests Ukraine might have to decide on some “kind of compromises”.

On the Middle East conflict, he has said it is “very important” that the US and other Nato countries convey “a very clear message to Israel” that they have to do “significantly more” to protect civilians and aid workers after the World Central Kitchen convoy attack.

Stoltenberg took over as the leader of Nato, the Western defence alliance, 10 years ago.

Speaking to mark the 75th anniversary of the organisation, he has told me the world is now “much more dangerous, much more unpredictable” and “much more violent”.

He has said there is an “authoritarian” alliance giving each other practical support that is “more and more aligned”.

• Read more here about Laura Kuenssberg’s interview with Jens Stoltenberg

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Just before this week’s programme finished, the panel shared their closing thoughts with Laura Kuenssberg.

Laura asks what the panel makes of countries “co-ordinating to try to undermine democracies”, and also asks what effect would former president Donald Trump being voted back into the White House have on Ukraine?

Former Cabinet Secretary Lord Mark Sedwill says let’s not be obsessed by our adversaries. “They don’t have a real alliance, it’s transactional.”

He adds Trump is unpredictable and “extremely challenging”.

Comedian Ruby Wax says the other “elephant in the room” is the issue of mental health, saying “we really have to deal with this domestic problem.”

If we are living in an age of anxiety, how can leaders confront that, Laura asks Baroness Valerie Amos.

She says we are seeing a general anxiety in people across the country and the world. Wellbeing is a major issue about the now, but also about the future that they “don’t know and understand”.

“We have to prepare people for a world of greater instability,” she adds.

That’s the show finished for another Sunday, but stay with us as we bring you the latest analysis and reaction to what was said on the show.

Let’s recap the key moments from this week’s Sunday with Laura Kuenssberg programme

• Deputy Prime Minister Oliver Dowden has reiterated the government will not publish legal advice relating to Israel acting within humanitarian law
• The Tory deputy prime minister insisted Israel is being held to “high standards“ as it carries out military operations in Gaza
• Concerns have been raised with Israel, Dowden has said adding it is important aid corridors are opened up for people suffering in the Gaza Strip
• Next, Labour’s Shadow Foreign Secretary David Lammy faced questions but said it should be Foreign Secretary Lord Cameron answering questions in the House of Commons
• Lammy was also asked about continued allegations over Angela Rayner’s house sale – which he dismissed as a “non-story”
• Finally, Nato’s leader Jens Stoltenberg believes extra cash for Ukraine is vital and urged Nato and its allies to stand together and protect each other, saying “we live in a more dangerous world”
• Stoltenberg also says its important for the international community “to convey a very clear message to Israel that they have to do more, significantly more, to protect civilians and to protect aid workers”

Finally, Laura asks if more countries should consider introducing forms of conscription given the rising threats around the world.

Stoltenberg says he does not have a recommendation, but mentions Norway – where he previously was prime minister – has had conscription for decades, giving access to the “best, and the most qualified, educated part of the young population”.

Asked if he is frightened for the future, Stoltenberg says we live in a “more dangerous world” and we have to be prepared for crisis and conflicts.

As long as we stand together and protect each other, no Nato ally will be attacked and we will be safe, Stoltenberg finishes.

Laura now turns to the Israel-Gaza war, which started six months ago.

Stoltenberg recently condemned the strikes which killed seven World Central Kitchen (WCK) aid workers in Gaza.

Laura asks if he believes Israel has gone too far?

Stoltenberg believes it is “very important Nato allies, including the US, convey a very clear message to Israel that they have to do more, significantly more, to protect civilians and to protect aid workers”.

He also welcomes efforts by the US, UK and others to facilitate an agreement on a ceasefire.

Laura asks the Nato chief if he believes the world is entering a new “era of instability”.

Stoltenberg agrees.

Nato is a regional alliance but the challenges are global, he says.

For example, Stoltenberg says: “China is propping up the Russian war economy, delivering key parts to the defence industry, and in return, Moscow is mortgaging its future to Beijing.”

Iran and North Korea are also sending military equipment and ammunition to Russia in exchange for technology, Stoltenberg says.

He adds: “And that makes it even more important that like-minded countries, Nato allies, but also our partners in the Asia-Pacific, that we also work more closely together. And that’s exactly what we do to stand up against this stronger alliance of authoritarian powers.”

Laura says Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky insists he will not cede one inch of Ukrainian territory, but some experts believe he may also have to give ground.

She asks if Stoltenberg can foresee a position where, to bring the war to an end, Ukraine should have to negotiate?

Stoltenberg replies it is for Ukraine to decide what type of compromises they are willing to make.

We need to enable them to be in a position where they can achieve an acceptable result, he adds.

Laura then asks if Stoltenberg’s call for support for five years imply the Russia-Ukraine war may run for “many, many, many years”?

The Nato chief replies he hopes it will end sooner but they need to be “prepared for the long haul”.

Vladimir Putin believes he can win on the battlefield and they need to show he will not, he says.

The clearer they can convey that message, the more likely it is Putin will not win and has to sit down and negotiate a peace.

When the war ends it’s important to ensure Russia doesn’t attack again, Stoltenberg adds.

Copyright: BBC

We are now hearing from Nato’s Secretary-General Jens Stoltenberg.

Laura starts by asking him about the idea he has been floating of a multi-billion euro package of military support, potentially €100bn, for five years, to help Ukraine.

Stoltenberg confirms this will be new and extra money, and demonstrate a long-term commitment to Ukraine. Nato is currently discussing different ways of organising this, he says.

Asked how confident he is all allies will agree it, Stoltenberg says he is confident because “all allies agree that we should start planning for a stronger Nato role”, adding there is “no way” to avoid this cost.

He says: “So what we are discussing is not whether to pay, there’s no way to run away from that cost, but how to pay.”

Finally, Laura refers to new allegations in the newspapers this morning over whether shadow deputy prime minister Angela Rayner paid the proper tax on the sale of her home some years ago.

Rayner refuses to publish the advice she was given that she says shows no wrongdoing, Laura says. Why doesn’t she publish it so she can “move on”, Laura asks?

There is nothing new in this story this morning, Lammy says.

He goes on to say she has a “blended family” and did spend time in her husband’s home. It is “perfectly understandable” she would balance childcare between two homes. She took the appropriate advice, hasn’t broken any laws and it is a “non story”, he says.

Copyright: BBC

More from the shadow foreign secretary, who is asked about the Labour government in the early 2000s finding itself under pressure to publish legal advice regarding the Iraq war.

Laura says Lammy, currently aged 51, voted against publishing that legal advice and she then asks if Lammy has double-standards now calling for the UK government to release details relating to Israel.

“You said as a young MP,” Lammy jokes, adding “I am not so young anymore”.

“One learns from that experience.

“You are asking me something which happened 20 years ago. It is the now which matters,” Lammy says as he again calls for Lord Cameron to come to the House of Commons to face questions from MPs.

Laura’s next question to the shadow foreign secretary is, if Labour wins the general election, would it as a matter of principle always publish legal advice on contentious legal issues, if asked?

He says he believes on issues of war a summary of that advice is very important.

Pressed again, Lammy says he can’t foresee every circumstance for the next decade or so, but he believes on this issue – where there is so much discussion and debate – a summary of the advice should be published.

Labour MP David Lammy is next in the red seat. Laura asks him about people in Labour calling for government to immediately halt sales of arms to Israel.

Lammy starts by acknowledging hostages still in Gaza, six months on from the start of the conflict.

Laura continues to push Lammy on halting arms sales to Israel citing some of his Labour colleagues saying enough is enough.

She asks if people like the Mayor of London Sadiq Khan and Scottish Labour leader Anas Sarwar are wrong.

Lammy says the only person who can answer questions is the foreign secretary.

“He was dodging questions from journalists this week,” Lammy says as he reiterated his call for Lord Cameron to come to the House of Commons.

Laura previously pointed out the Commons has been in recess for the last week.

Finally, Laura takes Dowden back a couple of months when he denied allegations that the Conservative Party covered up rape allegations against one of its MPs.

Laura asks if he did know – citing reports in national newspapers alleging he did know.

“No,” the Deputy PM answers.

Laura refers to comments in today’s newspapers that the UK is not prepared to deal with challenges.

Dowden says this is not true. Threats are in many areas including cyber security and economic security. We are taking action across board, he says.

This world is going to get more dangerous as time goes on, he says, but he believes the UK is making good progress.

Dowden is then asked if the UK’s support for Israel is not unconditional.

He tells Laura he very much welcomes the new aid crossings which have been opened up.

“Aid has got to flow through,” Dowden says.

“We have had initial assurances. We want to see that turned into practice,” he adds.

Dowden insists the government “will act in accordance with our obligations under law” should it become the case Israel has breached international law.

Laura says Dowden has twice said Israel is being held to extremely high standards and some people are “relishing” Israel being put on the spot over whether they are acting legally.

“Who is relishing it,” she asks? Aren’t people just asking questions based on the suffering they see? Laura adds.

Dowden responds that it is “all too easy” for the world to forget the horrors Israel has faced, and rush back to attacking the country and holding it to standards we wouldn’t “remotely” hold others to.